Which famous american design?

[audioartist202]

Ok, like I said last week I'm new here so please excuse this potentially
dumb question but, I get it that the n72 is the neve and that the j99
is the Hardy and the the a12 is the api, but what pre does the c84 sound like?
I've been looking for the obvious clues which I'm sure are here but it is
getting by me. Thanks

[ryansteele]

from what i understand, millenia...

[sands]

does anyone know or have any comparison samples of these pres?

I found one on here between an a12 and a eurodesk. I'm not sure what it was recorded with or what the converters were, but it made the eurodesk look good. The difference was minimal, especially when you consider the amount of money and time spent building the pre.

any info would be a great help

thanks

sands

[atiller]

Keep in mind that for the most part, the quality of the pre (when it comes to subtleties) is going to be affected by the quality of the assembly.

With that said, if you are hearing very little difference between a behringer preamp and an api preamp then I suggest you visit the ENT specialist!

[sands]

I was wondering what the deal was. It's on this forum. I'll have to look and give you the section I found it in.

I would like you to listen to it and see what you think. I'm not sure who the guy is, he hasn't posted a reply yet. He states that the first, left side is the a12 and the right is the eurodesk, (or maybe the other direction, don't remember right now). I don't think I'm deaf, but I couldn't tell a huge difference. I have engineered with all kinds of api's, 1073's, 1084's etc...and these didn't do much for me after listening to the samples.

Can you explain the assembly you spoke of. I have never put anything like that together. Is it a certain soldier or something? All the parts come with correct? Sorry for my ignorance, but have never built one of these.

[sands]

here found it. It's in the a12 section.


http://www.chowhouse.com/~james/sca/

[atiller]

I haven't listened yet, but to answer your question, the handling and installation of all the components will affect the sound quality of the preamp, in subtle and/or drastic ways. Most obvious is putting in components wrong! Accidentally switching ceramic caps (there are 3 different kinds in the c84 and aside from very small markings, all look identical) will still allow the preamp to work, but can affect the sound. Overheating (during soldering) components such as opamps and especially transistors can change their response to incoming signals. Poor soldering alone can affect the quality of the passing signal. All of these things together can really alter the tonal response of the preamp. [Tim, if I'm off mark here, please correct me]

As for the assembly, if you're half competant with a soldering iron and have some deal of patience you can assemble these. Everyone has a different approach I would imagine. I personally first sorted all the parts and laid them out on pieces of paper (or stuck in anti-static foam) marked with their corresponding BOM number. As I was doing this I checked all the values I could with the multimeter. That takes about an hour or so. At the end however, I've got all my parts checked and labelled according to the BOM and ready to go in. Then its a just a matter of following the instructions. Tim's got it laid out so that you start with the smallest profile components and work your way to the bigger ones. This makes it easier for flipping the board and soldering the leads to the pads. After I placed a set of components, I would solder the leads in and trim the leads with a pair of snips.

After all your soldering and trimming, you get to do some basic tests to make sure you haven't royally screwed anything up. If you aren't extra dilligent in sorting, stuffing, and soldering your components you run the risk of say, placing a diode or cap in backwards which will cause you to run into problems.

Long story short, building these things just takes patience, dilligence, and some half-decent soldering skills.

Hope this ramble was somewhat helpful!

-Adam

[atiller]

I just listened to the electric guitar sample. All variables aren't known here, which makes for a pretty difficult comparison, but nonetheless I can hear a pretty huge difference between the two preamps.

The eurodesk sounds very brittle and harsh to me. Especially on passges with strong attacks. The highend is piercing and the low end is weak. It sounds like a cheap preamp.

The A12 on the other hand is the complete opposite. Listen to the low-mids and mids. They are very full and warm sounding. The hard attack passages are rounded off nicely and not harsh at all. It's got a nice round presence to it.

Thats my $0.02 anyway!

-Adam

[sands]

thanks for the explanation. I didn't take human error into account, which is usually 99% of problems. I work on computers for people quite often and I would have to say I see some amazing things. Always makes me think of the Saturday Night Live skit, with Nick Burns, the company computer guy, haha!

I did notice the difference in the sound, but to me it didn't sound all that convincing, when you compare how much it costs to build one of these pre's, coupled with the time it takes to put one together. For sure, though we both stated that the other variables that are not known, which could be a big determiner in this situation.

I've noticed the biggest change in my system by using a better clocking device and a better set of converters.
Also the example uses an electric guitar, which to me, doesn't need a wonderful pre in most cases, Especially with rock music. I tend to record my guitar at about gig volumes, so the signal is always strong. When it comes to voice, that's where I lack for sure. The College I worked at a few weeks ago has a full run of API's, 1073's, 1084's and other great pieces. I noticed a big difference there. Do you know anyone that has a comparison recording of a high end pre compared to something like a 1084 or anything considered high end. I would be interested in hearing that and knowing all the variables.

thanks for your time,

sands

[atiller]

The worst thing about listening to comparisons of such stuff is that the quality of the sound is totally subjective and entirely contextual. What does the source sound like? What sort of tone are you after? How does it work in the mix... etc etc etc. Above all, what sound do you want.

With that said, gearslutz.com is a very active forum fill of newbies and pros alike. Also tons of people do shootouts between preamps and mics and stuff and post results with detailed notes and whatnot. Just do a search.

Also, there's 'The Listening Sessions' which is basically an extensive set of shootouts comparing different mics and preamps and compressors. Again, because all of this stuff is contextual it can be argued these sorts of tests are completely frivolous, but I feel they a good for curiosity's sake at the very least.

Good luck in your search!
-Adam

[sands]

Yeah, I agree gearslutz is a great site. I read quite a bit from there. I haven't heard of the "Listening Room." I will try to track that down. I totally agree with what you said as far as it being so subjective-- for me that's what makes music so much fun. Another thing I have learned is just because a person does a test with a high end mic and pre doesn't really mean anything. I worked at another studio about a year ago in St. Louis and wow! The gear was great, however the room and the mic placement the so called producer used was way out of wack. I also realized about ten minutes into tracking that the studio monitors were out of phase!

I'm hoping to jet over to a place about six hours away here soon, A fellow mastering engineer I know was telling me about a place in Nashville, TN that carries all kinds of cool gear. He said they have rooms set up to listening and test all the gear. I'm pretty excited about that one.

I would love to research these Seven Circle Pre's more though. I love building things. My father is now a retired machinist of over 40 some years. He still has his own shop at his house and still builds things all the time. I think this would be a fun project for us to work on. The years of work have done a number on him so he's starting to work with wood alot more than metal. I think he would love to build a nice box for a set of these pre's. I know he's got some nice Honduras Mahogany from he got from Honduras a few years ago.

What's a good one to start with, maybe a stereo set? I have worked on a small number of electronics, mainly my old 65 bassman, so there's not much there and guitars and such. As far as cpu's go a ton, but it's all plug and play pretty much. I can use a solidering iron pretty good though, many years of screwing up got me good at that one! haha.

[atiller]

Well, I would suggest starting with the C84 if you're really worried about difficultly levels. Although, after having done to C84s now and looking at the other modules, they really don't look THAT much harder. I'm sure the transformer bits are a little more tedious, but I can't see how it would be much more difficult.

Anyway, if you're worried, give the C84 a shot. If you have a decent soldering iron (makes a HUGE difference) and a decent amount of patience you'll be fine!

[mrsteaks]

The T15 is a pretty simple project, as well. It sounds good, too. Not quite as smooth as the C84, but darn close!

[sands]

cool, thanks for the info.

I'm thinking with my current setup and music style building a set of two pre's will be the best thing to start with. My interface has two analog I/O. I like to song write and usually play with a click and a backing track, usually guitar. I usually mic my guitar cab and bass guitar, which sound decent. The problem is my drum kit, two nice pre's for overheads would be a great improvement. Also something for tracking vocals. Those are probably the most problematic areas in sound quality I have with my current set up.

what do guys think in terms of two pre's to start with?

[mrsteaks]

I started with the T15, based largely on it's simplicity and price. It has proven to be an excellent performer, as well. If price isn't an issue, the C84 sounds even better, and is no more difficult to build. Both of these pres fall into the "smooth and uncolored" sound category, IMHO. They are as good as anything out there. So, you make the call!