A12 sounds the same as Soundcraft Spirit SX

[wulftone]

Hi all,

Well, I just finished my first A12, and as the subject title says, my A12 sounds the same as Soundcraft Spirit SX. Well, that's not completely true, but it's damned close. The A12 has slightly better high-end. I was kinda looking forward to a noticeable improvement... : / It was fun to build, though...

I tried recording drums and vocals with it through various mics, vs. the soundcraft. They all came out sounding nearly identical on various mics and playback systems... anyone got any clues?

Thanks,
-Trevor

[tpryan]

As they say, "your mileage may vary." What is your complete signal path on recording and playback?

[wulftone]

Input:

kick: EV N/D868, SCA A12, M-Audio Delta 1010, Nuendo
snare: Sennheiser e604, SCA A12, M-Audio Delta 1010, Nuendo
voice: Shure KSM27, SCA A12, M-Audio Delta 1010, Nuendo

everything was recorded at 24-bit, 48kHz.

Output:

Delta 1010, Soundcraft Spirit SX, Yamaha RX-396, Yamaha NS-10s (or AKG 240 DF headphones, or various other in consequential things I have lying around)

I will try other things as other mics and such become available.

The signals were even very similar down to the sample level (though it wasn't a routing error, haha--that would have been silly--i had the A12s out of phase with the soundcraft pres while recording just for fail-safe-stupidity's sake)

I'm not complaining, I'm just curious what all the fuss is about, if there's some piece of my pie that is _seriously_ degrading something, I am unaware of its impact. Obviously the stuff I'm using isn't "pro studio," so perhaps the subtlety of the preamp is lost here?

*shrug*

[cletus]

It's probably your crappy m-audio converters. How would you be able to accurately hear whats going on with bad converters? Do you have access to anything that might provide better D/A?

[tpryan]

Try monitoring with headphones directly out of the mixer. You may want to borrow some Grados to contrast with the AKGs. If you don't think the A12s improve the sound of that e604 on snare, I don't know what to tell you.

[Karl]

I would second the converters. You may be interested in the mod (by Black Lion, I think) that vastly improves the coverters in the Delta units. Once I got Apogee, I haven't looked back. There IS a difference, you just need a better way to get your analog to digital. See if you can borrow a minime or some smaller high-quality converter and see if you notice anything then. I realize it's a high-cost, less "fun" upgrade to your studio, but they do make the difference in overall quality and bring new life to your pres (converters).

[KevinL]

BL doesn't improve the converters. They change the opamps in the analog section and provide a better clock that is seperate from the PC driven clock. I actually use a Delta 1010 still. I changed the opamps myself in mine but haven't made a clock change.

Having said that, I've built two of each of these preamps (except the T15) and I can hear the difference in preamps even with the "crappy" converters.
I also use to monitor through NS10's. The big difference in hearing the subtleties was actually getting some decent monitors. That was the thing that opened up my ears.
I do plan on upgrading my converters soon too, but the 1010 isn't the limiting factor here.

[wulftone]

Sounds good, I actually came across the Black Lion mod and did some research. This website (http://www.ixion-music.com/recordingThird.htm) actually posted some pics of their mod. How does it stack up to your mod and the black lion mod? Would an external clock help the Delta 1010 too?

I figured that the NS-10s would have something to do with the problem--given their extremely limited response... but the headphones weren't /much/ more revealing.

I have two Delta 1010's, so I was planning on modding one myself (probably cost $100 to buy all the parts and a couple of hours to do, fun!) and doing A/B tests.

Anyone have any input on possible components and part numbers for mods?

-Trevor

[KevinL]

I used OPA2604's.
Have you worked with surface mount IC's? I replaced mine with a normal soldering iron with a very small tip. I used a very pointy pair of wire cutters to clip the leads and remove the chip first and then remove the left over leads with the soldering iron. It's tricky to do without a surface mount soldering station.
It'll take you much longer than a couple of hours to do without it. Also, there's a lot of room for error soldering the new ones on.

You might as well send it to Black Lion if you want to keep using the 1010's. The cost in time and and money will probably be about the same for you with a lot less frustration.

I need 8 channels for drums or else I would have just dumped the 1010 a while ago.
My plan now is to get a top notch 2 channel AD/DA and clock the 1010 with it when I record drums.

[T-rex]

While certainly better converters will help, it's not going to change the fact that you are currently listening to both the Soundcraft and the A12 through the same converters for comparison purposes. Although better conversion might help highlight the differences, I doubt you will hear the big difference you are looking for.

How hard are you driving the A12? I would suggest padding the input and then driving the A12 really hard before it hits your delta's. Then your going to get more pronounced midrange "oomph" from the A12.

I will say this, to me the A12 does sounds very clean and fast and present. I would think the snare sounds closer to you in the speakers than the snare from the soundcraft? But the A12 doesn't seem as colored as I thought it would be and I have learned that I really favor thick very colored pres's. For me the N72 fits the bill perfectly, maybe you should look at that pre. It's also very versatile, If you don't drive it hard, it sounds pristine, but when you do drive it really hard, you start to get the benefits. Things start to compress and fatten up in a really amazing sounding way.

[wulftone]

Yeah, I've done surface mount stuff before. I enjoy building things (that's why I'm here!). The harder people think it is, the more I want to do it! Haha. Modding the Delta 1010 will be easy, finding the optimal opamp is my current concern.

I'll try "driving it hard" as you say... Should I try throwing the gain on the preamp all the way up and padding before the converter?

[T-rex]

I would pad it before the pre. Since your a DIY guy you can build some mic pads cheap with different db attenuations.

http://www.uneeda-audio.com/pads/

Or you can buy em cheap. They are handy to have around any studio really.